Reason and the Message - Revision history

Admin at 22:50, 16 July 2018

2018-07-16T22:50:03Z

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	Jesus never turned people away that had questions. And neither should we.		Jesus never turned people away that had questions. And neither should we.

	==The ~~Bible says that you should answer the~~ questions ~~of skeptics~~==		==The New Testament does not say to ignore questions==

	Many in the message ignore the many issues we have raised in this website and, when challenged, refuse to engage in any meaningful discussion or even attempt to answer the questions raised.		Many in the message ignore the many issues we have raised in this website and, when challenged, refuse to engage in any meaningful discussion or even attempt to answer the questions raised.
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	Why is it that there is a refusal to obey scripture? Is it because they know that they don't have any answers?		Why is it that there is a refusal to obey scripture? Is it because they know that they don't have any answers?

			In fact, there were some Jews that were very good at asking questions and they were commended for their diligence in Acts 17:11:

			:''Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.<ref>The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), Ac 17:11.</ref>

			Paul stated in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21:

			:''Do not scoff at prophecies, but test everything that is said.<ref>Tyndale House Publishers, Holy Bible: New Living Translation (Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 2013), 1 Th 5:20–21.</ref>

			How do you test something without asking questions?

	=The Confusion=		=The Confusion=

Admin: /* Jesus' reaction to someone who questioned him */

2016-02-04T22:15:25Z

Jesus' reaction to someone who questioned him

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	The issue is not whether you raise a question. Questions are fine. The real issue is where you go for the answers.		The issue is not whether you raise a question. Questions are fine. The real issue is where you go for the answers.

	Going to scripture and the evidence is the Biblical model. Ignoring the evidence or relying on what some ~~message~~ minister or William Branham tells you is definitely not how questions should be dealt with.		Going to scripture and the evidence is the Biblical model. Ignoring the evidence or relying on what some minister, or even William Branham himself, tells you is definitely not how questions should be dealt with.

			Jesus never turned people away that had questions. And neither should we.

	==The Bible says that you should answer the questions of skeptics==		==The Bible says that you should answer the questions of skeptics==

Admin at 18:04, 4 February 2016

2016-02-04T18:04:51Z

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	Paul reminded us that we walk by faith, not by sight. (2 Cor 5:7) He did not say we walk by faith and not by reason. He did not say we walk by faith and not by logic. Why sight? I believe it is because it represents the input of the five senses, the empirical data gatherers of our human existence. All of this information is processed by the mind, but little thinking, and certainly little faith is required in order to accept such information. It is raw data, and it has quick and immediate impact on our emotional responses. Animals interact with their environments primarily through this channel. NOT doing that is one of the primary attributes that separates us from them.		Paul reminded us that we walk by faith, not by sight. (2 Cor 5:7) He did not say we walk by faith and not by reason. He did not say we walk by faith and not by logic. Why sight? I believe it is because it represents the input of the five senses, the empirical data gatherers of our human existence. All of this information is processed by the mind, but little thinking, and certainly little faith is required in order to accept such information. It is raw data, and it has quick and immediate impact on our emotional responses. Animals interact with their environments primarily through this channel. NOT doing that is one of the primary attributes that separates us from them.

	=Faith vs. sight compared to faith vs. reason=		==Faith vs. sight compared to faith vs. reason==

	So how does faith vs. sight compare to faith vs. reason?		So how does faith vs. sight compare to faith vs. reason?
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	That is a very basic illustration and does not include divinely given faith. Any person so willing, whether they are a Christian or not, could effect that sort of faith, and indeed they do, every single day. But it is important to illustrate it nonetheless, to contrast faith with sight, and to show the absurdity of pitting faith against reason, when the two are so connected. Please note that there was no empirical proof of what you believe will happen [a positive result for your surgery], but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a solid basis for your faith.		That is a very basic illustration and does not include divinely given faith. Any person so willing, whether they are a Christian or not, could effect that sort of faith, and indeed they do, every single day. But it is important to illustrate it nonetheless, to contrast faith with sight, and to show the absurdity of pitting faith against reason, when the two are so connected. Please note that there was no empirical proof of what you believe will happen [a positive result for your surgery], but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a solid basis for your faith.

	=Rationality and Faith=		==Rationality and Faith==

	The protestant reformers recognized three elements of biblical faith, noticia, assensus, & feducia, or, in English, knowledge, assent, and trust. The more knowledge you have about the object of your faith, the greater your capacity for faith. The assent is the “amen” from the heart that says, yes, that knowledge is absolutely the truth. The trust is simply acting on that truth. Take away any of those three elements, and you don’t have faith of the bible, the faith that pleases God. Studying the bible all of your life will grant you a good bit of knowledge of God (noticia). Having the conviction that what you have come to know is true is also necessary (assensus), and so is falling back into Jesus’ arms even when you can’t see him, and joyfully putting the one human life you have to live, under his Lordship (feducia). When I read Hebrews 11 with that perspective on faith, my mind was blown.		The protestant reformers recognized three elements of biblical faith, noticia, assensus, & feducia, or, in English, knowledge, assent, and trust. The more knowledge you have about the object of your faith, the greater your capacity for faith. The assent is the “amen” from the heart that says, yes, that knowledge is absolutely the truth. The trust is simply acting on that truth. Take away any of those three elements, and you don’t have faith of the bible, the faith that pleases God. Studying the bible all of your life will grant you a good bit of knowledge of God (noticia). Having the conviction that what you have come to know is true is also necessary (assensus), and so is falling back into Jesus’ arms even when you can’t see him, and joyfully putting the one human life you have to live, under his Lordship (feducia). When I read Hebrews 11 with that perspective on faith, my mind was blown.
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	In their purest form, all of these orders are purveyors of truth. Two plus two can never equal seven. The truth of two plus two will always be four. A conclusion that follows from a faulty premise is an illogical conclusion. No amount of faith changes either of those situations, ever. Because it’s God’s law and it is true, and it cannot be changed. However, just as with science, that human intellectual order can bring destruction when out from under the proper influence of its creator. Paul said “Be transformed, by the renewing of your mind” (Rom 12:2) He also warned against the type of arrogant knowledge that would raise itself against God. (2 Cor 10:5) In both of these passages, the proper believer’s response is submission and humility, not ignorance.		In their purest form, all of these orders are purveyors of truth. Two plus two can never equal seven. The truth of two plus two will always be four. A conclusion that follows from a faulty premise is an illogical conclusion. No amount of faith changes either of those situations, ever. Because it’s God’s law and it is true, and it cannot be changed. However, just as with science, that human intellectual order can bring destruction when out from under the proper influence of its creator. Paul said “Be transformed, by the renewing of your mind” (Rom 12:2) He also warned against the type of arrogant knowledge that would raise itself against God. (2 Cor 10:5) In both of these passages, the proper believer’s response is submission and humility, not ignorance.

	=Reason and the Bible=		==Reason and the Bible==

	I believe the bible’s claims about itself, namely that it is the Word of God, and that it is true. I cannot empirically prove it to be so, but it is also not an illogical conclusion. Over the thousands of years of its history, its many writers penned the most profound, coherent, beautiful narrative of human history and redemption ever written. Prophecies were recorded, and fulfilled. Promises were made, and then kept.		I believe the bible’s claims about itself, namely that it is the Word of God, and that it is true. I cannot empirically prove it to be so, but it is also not an illogical conclusion. Over the thousands of years of its history, its many writers penned the most profound, coherent, beautiful narrative of human history and redemption ever written. Prophecies were recorded, and fulfilled. Promises were made, and then kept.
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	We aren't asking for empirical evidence for supernatural events and fulfilled prophecies, we are pointing out what should be obvious to someone who honors the laws of logic laid down by God himself: they could not have happened, because you have to commit every logical fallacy known to man in order to prop up the claims. That is not vindication. That is our first line of defense, of discernment, the laws of logic that we use every day whether we understand them or not.		We aren't asking for empirical evidence for supernatural events and fulfilled prophecies, we are pointing out what should be obvious to someone who honors the laws of logic laid down by God himself: they could not have happened, because you have to commit every logical fallacy known to man in order to prop up the claims. That is not vindication. That is our first line of defense, of discernment, the laws of logic that we use every day whether we understand them or not.

	=The Existence of Jesus Christ=		===The Existence of Jesus Christ===

	As for the existence of Jesus, again, that is not only logical, but verifiable by non-Christian historians like Josephus and others. It would be far more difficult to argue that he did not exist. Why is this? Because it is true that he existed! Logic is designed to funnel information toward true conclusions.		As for the existence of Jesus, again, that is not only logical, but verifiable by non-Christian historians like Josephus and others. It would be far more difficult to argue that he did not exist. Why is this? Because it is true that he existed! Logic is designed to funnel information toward true conclusions.
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	=Conclusion=		=Conclusion=

	My goal is not to “destroy” the message. That would do nothing whatsoever to further the kingdom of God, even seeing it the way I do, it would only displace lots of confused people. The goal is make people think. Let go of your fear. If your view is correct, it will stand up to scrutiny. You may not be able to prove it empirically, as we all believe many things (like the fact that we have a brain cough, cough) that we can’t prove via empirical deduction. But through enough evidence, you can be certain that if someone cuts a hole in your skull, there will be gray matter under there.		Our goal is not to “destroy” the message. That would do nothing whatsoever to further the kingdom of God, even seeing it the way we do, it would only displace lots of confused people. The goal is make people think. Let go of your fear. If your view is correct, it will stand up to scrutiny. You may not be able to prove it empirically, as we all believe many things (like the fact that we have a brain... cough, cough) that we can’t prove via empirical deduction. But through enough evidence, you can be certain that if someone cuts a hole in your skull, there will be gray matter under there.

	I don’t think I even need to go into why it is a logical fallacy in and of itself to try to draw a comparison between the faith that you have a brain, and the faith in ~~Br.~~ Branham’s cloud story. And logical fallacies --at least in the context they are presented-- are by definition, falsehoods, which are weekly ~~propagated~~ from message pulpits across the world. See what I mean? They may be good men. They might mean well. But by stubbornly sticking to their guns, their integrity is at stake. No matter how you slice it, when you tell something that isn’t true it is a lie! Truth simply HAS to matter more than that to a child of God.		I don’t think I even need to go into why it is a logical fallacy in and of itself to try to draw a comparison between the faith that you have a brain, and the faith in William Branham’s cloud story. And logical fallacies -- at least in the context they are presented -- are by definition, falsehoods, which are propagated weekly from message pulpits across the world. See what I mean? They may be good men. They might mean well. But by stubbornly sticking to their guns, their integrity is at stake. No matter how you slice it, when you tell something that isn’t true it is a lie! '''Truth simply HAS to matter more than that to a child of God.'''

	This is the biggest frustration in conversing with message believers. They have been so conditioned to say whatever they choose that sounds like it bolsters their position that they have no concern at all that what they say is actually accurate~~, none~~!		This is the biggest frustration in conversing with message believers. They have been so conditioned to say whatever they choose that sounds like it bolsters their position that they have no concern at all that what they say is actually accurate. None!

	It’s completely insane.		It’s completely insane.

Admin: /* Jesus' reaction to someone who questioned him */

2016-02-04T18:01:30Z

Jesus' reaction to someone who questioned him

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	:''I tell you, '''among those born of women none is greater than John'''. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”<ref>The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton: Standard Bible Society, 2001), Lk 7:18–28.</ref>		:''I tell you, '''among those born of women none is greater than John'''. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”<ref>The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton: Standard Bible Society, 2001), Lk 7:18–28.</ref>

	'''''Was Jesus upset when John questioned who he was?'''''		'''''Was Jesus upset when John questioned who he was?''''' '''No!'''

	~~Why~~ are so many in the message upset when someone questions whether William Branham was a great prophet, or even a prophet at all? This was not the pattern of Jesus. Jesus was fine with John's question.		Then why are so many in the message upset when someone questions whether William Branham was a great prophet, or even a prophet at all? This was not the pattern of Jesus. Jesus was fine with John's question.

	'''''Did Jesus tell John's disciples that he was ~~clearly~~ the messiah?'' No!'''		'''''Did Jesus tell John's disciples clearly that he was the messiah?'' No!'''

	'''What did Jesus do in response to the question?''' He simply pointed to the evidence.		'''What did Jesus do in response to the question?''' He simply pointed to the evidence.

	~~Why~~ do ~~so many in the~~ message get angry when when someone asks whether the evidence supports William Branham's view that he was a great prophet?		But why do message preachers get so angry when when someone asks whether the evidence supports William Branham's view that he was a great prophet?

	This is not the Biblical pattern. Jesus gave the example of requiring people to examine the evidence.		This is not the Biblical pattern. Jesus gave the example of requiring people to examine the evidence.

			The issue is not whether you raise a question. Questions are fine. The real issue is where you go for the answers.

			Going to scripture and the evidence is the Biblical model. Ignoring the evidence or relying on what some message minister or William Branham tells you is definitely not how questions should be dealt with.

	==The Bible says that you should answer the questions of skeptics==		==The Bible says that you should answer the questions of skeptics==

Admin: /* Jesus' reaction to someone who questioned him */

2016-02-04T17:43:49Z

Jesus' reaction to someone who questioned him

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	:''I tell you, '''among those born of women none is greater than John'''. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”<ref>The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton: Standard Bible Society, 2001), Lk 7:18–28.</ref>		:''I tell you, '''among those born of women none is greater than John'''. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”<ref>The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton: Standard Bible Society, 2001), Lk 7:18–28.</ref>

	Was Jesus upset when John questioned who he was?		'''''Was Jesus upset when John questioned who he was?'''''

	Why are so many in the message upset when someone questions whether William Branham was a great prophet, or even a prophet at all? This was not the pattern of Jesus. Jesus was fine with John's question.		Why are so many in the message upset when someone questions whether William Branham was a great prophet, or even a prophet at all? This was not the pattern of Jesus. Jesus was fine with John's question.

	Did Jesus tell John's disciples that he was clearly the messiah? No!		'''''Did Jesus tell John's disciples that he was clearly the messiah?'' No!'''

	What did Jesus do in response to the question? He simply pointed to the evidence.		'''What did Jesus do in response to the question?''' He simply pointed to the evidence.

	Why do so many in the message get angry when when someone asks whether the evidence supports William Branham's view that he was a great prophet?		Why do so many in the message get angry when when someone asks whether the evidence supports William Branham's view that he was a great prophet?

	This is not the Biblical pattern. Jesus gave the example of requiring people to examine the evidence.		This is not the Biblical pattern. Jesus gave the example of requiring people to examine the evidence.



	==The Bible says that you should answer the questions of skeptics==		==The Bible says that you should answer the questions of skeptics==

Admin at 17:31, 4 February 2016

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 The way that most message believers see it, these two points don’t seem to be compatible.  To believe the first point requires faith, and revelation.  And it does. But it is the different paths that we take to arrive there — primarily, the subject of point #2 — that will shed much light on how we can stand in absolute unity on the attributes of the bible, while attempting to communicate across galaxies with regard to the message.
-=Jesus talked about reasoning=
+=The Biblical approach=
 Jesus said the greatest commandment was “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind”. (Mat 22:37) What does it mean to love God with all your mind?
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 That is the problem.  We have been programmed to operate spiritually from a ''faith vs. reason'' paradigm that says that in order to activate faith we have to deactivate reason.  The problem is, the Bible teaches no such antithetical relationship between the two. God intended them to work in perfect synthesis, with spiritual faith working at a higher level above our human capacity to reason, not in a vacuum devoid of all logical sequence of thought.
-=The Bible says that you should answer the questions of skeptics=
+==Jesus' reaction to someone who questioned him==
 Many in the message ignore the many issues we have raised in this website and, when challenged, refuse to engage in any meaningful discussion or even attempt to answer the questions raised.

Admin at 23:48, 14 January 2016

2016-01-14T23:48:59Z

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	William Branham repeatedly stated that "''~~the Bible said that~~ we should cast down reasoning''". The problem is that there is no scripture in the Bible that states ~~that~~. Was William Branham adding to scripture? Is there any scriptural support for his claim?		William Branham repeatedly stated that the Bible clearly taught that "''we should cast down reasoning''". The problem is that there is no scripture in the Bible that states this. Was William Branham adding to scripture? Is there any scriptural support for his claim?

	Message followers also that, since nothing of any biblical substance can be empirically “proven”, faith is required in order to treat anything in the Bible as fact. It is therefore reckless to hold William Branham to a different standard, and therefore, illogical to expect his followers to abandon belief in him on the basis of factual evidence.		Message followers have also stated that, since nothing of any biblical substance can be empirically “proven”, faith is required in order to treat anything in the Bible as fact. It is therefore reckless to hold William Branham to a different standard, and therefore, '''it is illogical to expect his followers to abandon belief in him on the basis of factual evidence'''.

	~~Furthermore, message followers~~ have ~~told us that Elijah's vindication on Mt. Carmel, and the very existence of Jesus, are two examples of things that are~~ true~~, but that simply cannot be proved.~~		Does reason destroy faith? Or is reason required to have a true Biblical faith?

	~~Therefore, nothing about William Branham's life can be proven factually incorrect.~~

	{\|style="width:100%; background-color:#cedff2; border:1px #a3b0bf solid; text-align:center;"		{\|style="width:100%; background-color:#cedff2; border:1px #a3b0bf solid; text-align:center;"

Admin at 23:34, 14 January 2016

2016-01-14T23:34:00Z

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	Furthermore, message followers have told us that Elijah's vindication on Mt. Carmel, and the very existence of Jesus, are two examples of things that are true, but that simply cannot be proved.		Furthermore, message followers have told us that Elijah's vindication on Mt. Carmel, and the very existence of Jesus, are two examples of things that are true, but that simply cannot be proved.

	Therefore, nothing about William Branham's life can be proven factually incorrect.		Therefore, nothing about William Branham's life can be proven factually incorrect.

	:''It is a fundamental principle that to renounce reason is to renounce religion, that religion and reason go hand in hand; all irrational religion is false religion.~~" -~~ John Wesley		{\|style="width:100%; background-color:#cedff2; border:1px #a3b0bf solid; text-align:center;"
			\|'''''It is a fundamental principle that to renounce reason is to renounce religion, that religion and reason go hand in hand; all irrational religion is false religion.'''''<br>''John Wesley''
			\|}

	=Background=		=Background=

Admin at 23:31, 14 January 2016

2016-01-14T23:31:50Z

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	{{Top of Page}}		{{Top of Page}}
	{{Template:Reason and the Message}}		{{Template:Reason and the Message}}
	~~Message believers have~~ stated that ~~since nothing of any biblical substance can be empirically “proven”, faith~~ is ~~required~~ in ~~order to treat any of it as fact~~. ~~It is therefore reckless to hold~~ William Branham to ~~a different standard, and therefore, illogical to expect~~ his ~~followers to abandon belief in him on the basis of factual evidence.~~		William Branham repeatedly stated that "''the Bible said that we should cast down reasoning''". The problem is that there is no scripture in the Bible that states that. Was William Branham adding to scripture? Is there any scriptural support for his claim?

	Message ~~Believers~~ have told us that Elijah's vindication on Mt. Carmel, and the very existence of Jesus, are two examples of things that are true, but that simply cannot be proved. Therefore, nothing about William Branham's life can be ~~unproven~~.		Message followers also that, since nothing of any biblical substance can be empirically “proven”, faith is required in order to treat anything in the Bible as fact. It is therefore reckless to hold William Branham to a different standard, and therefore, illogical to expect his followers to abandon belief in him on the basis of factual evidence.

			Furthermore, message followers have told us that Elijah's vindication on Mt. Carmel, and the very existence of Jesus, are two examples of things that are true, but that simply cannot be proved.

			Therefore, nothing about William Branham's life can be proven factually incorrect.

	:''It is a fundamental principle that to renounce reason is to renounce religion, that religion and reason go hand in hand; all irrational religion is false religion." - John Wesley		:''It is a fundamental principle that to renounce reason is to renounce religion, that religion and reason go hand in hand; all irrational religion is false religion." - John Wesley

Admin: /* Quotes of William Branham */

2016-01-14T23:26:33Z

Quotes of William Branham

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	=Quotes of William Branham=		=Quotes of William Branham=

	And their mind will never bring them to God. Your mind is reasonings. And God has no reasonings.<ref>THE.UNCERTAIN.SOUND_ JEFF.IN V-26 N-19 SUNDAY_ 55-0731</ref>		''And their mind will never bring them to God. Your mind is reasonings. And God has no reasonings.<ref>THE.UNCERTAIN.SOUND_ JEFF.IN V-26 N-19 SUNDAY_ 55-0731</ref>


			''There is a far great difference between intellectual faith and real God-sent faith. Intellectual faith reasons. And '''the Bible said that we should cast down reasoning.''' Don't have nothing to do… Don't try to reason it. Just believe it.<ref>William Branham, 58-0325 - Faith By Experience, para. 14</ref>