A response to Pastor Wisper Gwena - Revision history

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	[[Category: ~~Unfinished articles~~]]		[[Category: Message Ministers]]

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	The Off The Shelf podcast did a [http://offtheshelf.life/podcast/episode-42-how-to-defend-william-branham-poorly-part-1/ 5 episode series commenting on Pastor Wisper Gwena's defense of William Branham.] Pastor Gwena is a pastor of a message congregation in North London, UK.		The Off The Shelf podcast did a [http://offtheshelf.life/podcast/episode-42-how-to-defend-william-branham-poorly-part-1/ 5 episode series commenting on Pastor Wisper Gwena's defense of William Branham.] Pastor Gwena is a pastor of a message congregation in North London, UK.

	Pastor Gwena responded in a series of comments on the podcast website, which we have provided for our readers below.		Pastor Gwena responded in a series of comments on the podcast website, which we have provided for our readers below. We have also included our comments below.

			More importantly, we have added Pastor Gwena's use of red herrings to our article on the subject which you can read by clicking [[Failed Prophecies#Pastor Wisper Gwena's use of the red herring\|here.]]

	~~'''''Our response to Pastor Gwena's comments are in process and this sentence will be removed when they are completed.'''''~~

	=A response to Pastor Gwena=		=A response to Pastor Gwena=

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-The Off The Shelf podcast did a [http://offtheshelf.life/podcast/episode-42-how-to-defend-william-branham-poorly-part-1/ 5 episode series commenting on Pastor Wisper Gwena's defense of William Branham.]  Pastor Gwena is a pastor of a message congregation in North London.
+The Off The Shelf podcast did a [http://offtheshelf.life/podcast/episode-42-how-to-defend-william-branham-poorly-part-1/ 5 episode series commenting on Pastor Wisper Gwena's defense of William Branham.]  Pastor Gwena is a pastor of a message congregation in North London, UK.
 Pastor Gwena responded in a series of comments on the podcast website, which we have provided for our readers below.
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 Thanks and God bless you
-Tony
+Tony B.
 ------------

Admin at 03:00, 11 January 2018

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	{{Top of Page}}		{{Top of Page}}
	The Off The Shelf podcast did a [http://offtheshelf.life/podcast/episode-42-how-to-defend-william-branham-poorly-part-1/ 5 episode series commenting on Pastor Wisper Gwena's defense of William Branham.]		The Off The Shelf podcast did a [http://offtheshelf.life/podcast/episode-42-how-to-defend-william-branham-poorly-part-1/ 5 episode series commenting on Pastor Wisper Gwena's defense of William Branham.] Pastor Gwena is a pastor of a message congregation in North London.

	Pastor Gwena responded in a series of comments on the podcast website, which we have provided for our readers below.		Pastor Gwena responded in a series of comments on the podcast website, which we have provided for our readers below.

Admin at 04:04, 9 January 2018

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	{{Top of Page}}		{{Top of Page}}
	The Off The Shelf podcast did a http://offtheshelf.life/podcast/episode-42-how-to-defend-william-branham-poorly-part-1/ 5 episode series commenting on Pastor Wisper Gwena's defense of William Branham.		The Off The Shelf podcast did a [http://offtheshelf.life/podcast/episode-42-how-to-defend-william-branham-poorly-part-1/ 5 episode series commenting on Pastor Wisper Gwena's defense of William Branham.]

	Pastor Gwena responded in a series of comments on the podcast website, which we have provided for our readers below.		Pastor Gwena responded in a series of comments on the podcast website, which we have provided for our readers below.

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	:''Coming to cognitive dissonance, this is a well known psychology theory. This theory is not about message believers trying to defend the Prophet as you almost try and make it sound. The theory suggests that people have an inner drive to hold their beliefs (cognitions) and attitudes in harmony and avoid disharmony (dissonance). This belief spoken of here is ANY belief NOT just a message belief as you try and potray. You people now hold a firm cognition (belief) that Bro Branham was a false prophet. This belief is so deep entrenched in you that you think anyone that does not see what you see is deluded. You fight for your belief so much until you have dedicated websites, podcasts, hours and hours of time to try and defend your belief and spread your beliefs. Anyone that comes against your beliefs you accuse them of cognitive dissonance YET YOU DON'T REALISE THAT YOU YOURSELVES ARE IN COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. You say where are we in dissonance, deep within you there are somethings that you know that these were supernatural in the life of Bro Branham. Your website Rod carries the testimony of Charlie Mitchel who Bro Branham discerned accurately in the sermon This Day This Scripture Is Fulfilled. No prayer cards had been given in that service so Bro Branham could not have been reading prayer cards as some may be deluded to want to say. People went to ask Charlie if they had a previous encounter with Bro Branham and he confirmed there was none. People then asked him what he had done to be called out in discernment and he said in his own words “I just gave up this whole world and take Jesus”. His lung cancer was instantly healed and he went to 2 separate specialist who confirmed he no longer had cancer. THIS TESTIMONY IS ON YOUR OWN WEBSITE ROD. So you know there was a supernatural that was undeniable in the life of WMB. This knowledge is there at the back of your soul but because you now hold a firm belief that Bro Branham was false, you now go into cognitive dissonance. The result is you dedicate a life to try and disprove God's Prophet. Those are the TYPICAL SIGNS OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE.		:''Coming to cognitive dissonance, this is a well known psychology theory. This theory is not about message believers trying to defend the Prophet as you almost try and make it sound. The theory suggests that people have an inner drive to hold their beliefs (cognitions) and attitudes in harmony and avoid disharmony (dissonance). This belief spoken of here is ANY belief NOT just a message belief as you try and potray. You people now hold a firm cognition (belief) that Bro Branham was a false prophet. This belief is so deep entrenched in you that you think anyone that does not see what you see is deluded. You fight for your belief so much until you have dedicated websites, podcasts, hours and hours of time to try and defend your belief and spread your beliefs. Anyone that comes against your beliefs you accuse them of cognitive dissonance YET YOU DON'T REALISE THAT YOU YOURSELVES ARE IN COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. You say where are we in dissonance, deep within you there are somethings that you know that these were supernatural in the life of Bro Branham. Your website Rod carries the testimony of Charlie Mitchel who Bro Branham discerned accurately in the sermon This Day This Scripture Is Fulfilled. No prayer cards had been given in that service so Bro Branham could not have been reading prayer cards as some may be deluded to want to say. People went to ask Charlie if they had a previous encounter with Bro Branham and he confirmed there was none. People then asked him what he had done to be called out in discernment and he said in his own words “I just gave up this whole world and take Jesus”. His lung cancer was instantly healed and he went to 2 separate specialist who confirmed he no longer had cancer. THIS TESTIMONY IS ON YOUR OWN WEBSITE ROD. So you know there was a supernatural that was undeniable in the life of WMB. This knowledge is there at the back of your soul but because you now hold a firm belief that Bro Branham was false, you now go into cognitive dissonance. The result is you dedicate a life to try and disprove God's Prophet. Those are the TYPICAL SIGNS OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE.

	::The title of Dr. Festinger's book is "WHEN ~~RPOPHECY~~ FAILS" which describes EXACTLY what has happened to you. One of the things required for more fervent belief to occur is this "undeniable disconfirmatory evidence must occur." That is what our evidence with respect to the failed visions ~~are~~ - disconfirmatory evidence.		::The title of Dr. Festinger's book is "WHEN PROPHECY FAILS" which describes EXACTLY what has happened to you. One of the things required for more fervent belief to occur is this "undeniable disconfirmatory evidence must occur." That is what our evidence with respect to the failed visions is - disconfirmatory evidence. By definition, it creates cognitive dissonance.

	:''Let me drop this here – Charlie Mitchel said he gave up the whole world and TOOK JESUS. When he took Jesus, Bro Branham was directed to him in discernment and his cancer disappeared. Charlie TOOK JESUS and that Jesus responded through a prophet whom you now want to call FALSE – Please let's be honest in heart !!! If there are things we don't understand let us just say there are things we don't understand and wait for God to clear them for us.		:''Let me drop this here – Charlie Mitchel said he gave up the whole world and TOOK JESUS. When he took Jesus, Bro Branham was directed to him in discernment and his cancer disappeared. Charlie TOOK JESUS and that Jesus responded through a prophet whom you now want to call FALSE – Please let's be honest in heart !!! If there are things we don't understand let us just say there are things we don't understand and wait for God to clear them for us.

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	:''I REST MY CASE		:''I REST MY CASE

	::But you have not proved a thing. An independent jury would not be convinced. In fact, they would look at you quizzically and wonder where your evidence is.		::But you have not proved a thing. An independent jury would not be convinced. In fact, they would look at you quizzically and wonder where your evidence is. And that is precisely the reason that you should appear on our podcast. Let the people hear your explanations and our and let them judge.

	==Listener comments==		==Listener comments==

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	:''You said here the only excuse for a “failed” vision is repentance. In my comments on your episode 45 (part 3) below I gave you a scripture on Elijah dying without fulfilling what God told him to do on anointing Jehu. You tried to explain this by saying Elijah was a disobedient prophet as opposed to a false prophet. But follow my arguments in my comments and you will see your explanation does not hold water. You then try and throw a red herring to divert attention to words vision vs still small voice when the point of the argument is God spoke to Elijah directly. PLEASE READ MY COMMENTS ON EPISODE 45 on Elijah dying without fulfilling what God had told him.		:''You said here the only excuse for a “failed” vision is repentance. In my comments on your episode 45 (part 3) below I gave you a scripture on Elijah dying without fulfilling what God told him to do on anointing Jehu. You tried to explain this by saying Elijah was a disobedient prophet as opposed to a false prophet. But follow my arguments in my comments and you will see your explanation does not hold water. You then try and throw a red herring to divert attention to words vision vs still small voice when the point of the argument is God spoke to Elijah directly. PLEASE READ MY COMMENTS ON EPISODE 45 on Elijah dying without fulfilling what God had told him.

	;;I am surprised that you are unable to see the difference between WMB saying "Thus Saith The Lord" I WILL KILL A BROWN BEAR and Elijah saying that God told him to do something and he didn't do it. The difference is ~~simply~~ but if you can't see it, I am not surprised because THAT IS WHAT cognitive dissonance does to a person. They must accept the position that justifies their beliefs and are unable to see even simple contradictions.		::I am surprised that you are unable to see the difference between WMB saying "Thus Saith The Lord" I WILL KILL A BROWN BEAR and Elijah saying that God told him to do something and he didn't do it. The difference is simple but if you can't see it, I am not surprised because THAT IS WHAT cognitive dissonance does to a person. They must accept the position that justifies their beliefs and are unable to see even simple contradictions.

	Coming to cognitive dissonance, this is a well known psychology theory. This theory is not about message believers trying to defend the Prophet as you almost try and make it sound. The theory suggests that people have an inner drive to hold their beliefs (cognitions) and attitudes in harmony and avoid disharmony (dissonance). This belief spoken of here is ANY belief NOT just a message belief as you try and potray. You people now hold a firm cognition (belief) that Bro Branham was a false prophet. This belief is so deep entrenched in you that you think anyone that does not see what you see is deluded. You fight for your belief so much until you have dedicated websites, podcasts, hours and hours of time to try and defend your belief and spread your beliefs. Anyone that comes against your beliefs you accuse them of cognitive dissonance YET YOU DON'T REALISE THAT YOU YOURSELVES ARE IN COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. You say where are we in dissonance, deep within you there are somethings that you know that these were supernatural in the life of Bro Branham. Your website Rod carries the testimony of Charlie Mitchel who Bro Branham discerned accurately in the sermon This Day This Scripture Is Fulfilled. No prayer cards had been given in that service so Bro Branham could not have been reading prayer cards as some may be deluded to want to say. People went to ask Charlie if they had a previous encounter with Bro Branham and he confirmed there was none. People then asked him what he had done to be called out in discernment and he said in his own words “I just gave up this whole world and take Jesus”. His lung cancer was instantly healed and he went to 2 separate specialist who confirmed he no longer had cancer. THIS TESTIMONY IS ON YOUR OWN WEBSITE ROD. So you know there was a supernatural that was undeniable in the life of WMB. This knowledge is there at the back of your soul but because you now hold a firm belief that Bro Branham was false, you now go into cognitive dissonance. The result is you dedicate a life to try and disprove God's Prophet. Those are the TYPICAL SIGNS OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE.		:''Coming to cognitive dissonance, this is a well known psychology theory. This theory is not about message believers trying to defend the Prophet as you almost try and make it sound. The theory suggests that people have an inner drive to hold their beliefs (cognitions) and attitudes in harmony and avoid disharmony (dissonance). This belief spoken of here is ANY belief NOT just a message belief as you try and potray. You people now hold a firm cognition (belief) that Bro Branham was a false prophet. This belief is so deep entrenched in you that you think anyone that does not see what you see is deluded. You fight for your belief so much until you have dedicated websites, podcasts, hours and hours of time to try and defend your belief and spread your beliefs. Anyone that comes against your beliefs you accuse them of cognitive dissonance YET YOU DON'T REALISE THAT YOU YOURSELVES ARE IN COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. You say where are we in dissonance, deep within you there are somethings that you know that these were supernatural in the life of Bro Branham. Your website Rod carries the testimony of Charlie Mitchel who Bro Branham discerned accurately in the sermon This Day This Scripture Is Fulfilled. No prayer cards had been given in that service so Bro Branham could not have been reading prayer cards as some may be deluded to want to say. People went to ask Charlie if they had a previous encounter with Bro Branham and he confirmed there was none. People then asked him what he had done to be called out in discernment and he said in his own words “I just gave up this whole world and take Jesus”. His lung cancer was instantly healed and he went to 2 separate specialist who confirmed he no longer had cancer. THIS TESTIMONY IS ON YOUR OWN WEBSITE ROD. So you know there was a supernatural that was undeniable in the life of WMB. This knowledge is there at the back of your soul but because you now hold a firm belief that Bro Branham was false, you now go into cognitive dissonance. The result is you dedicate a life to try and disprove God's Prophet. Those are the TYPICAL SIGNS OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE.

	::The title of Dr. Festinger's book is "WHEN RPOPHECY FAILS" which describes EXACTLY what has happened to you. One of the things required for more fervent belief to occur is this "undeniable disconfirmatory evidence must occur." That is what our evidence with respect to the failed visions are - disconfirmatory evidence.		::The title of Dr. Festinger's book is "WHEN RPOPHECY FAILS" which describes EXACTLY what has happened to you. One of the things required for more fervent belief to occur is this "undeniable disconfirmatory evidence must occur." That is what our evidence with respect to the failed visions are - disconfirmatory evidence.
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	:''Let me drop this here – Charlie Mitchel said he gave up the whole world and TOOK JESUS. When he took Jesus, Bro Branham was directed to him in discernment and his cancer disappeared. Charlie TOOK JESUS and that Jesus responded through a prophet whom you now want to call FALSE – Please let's be honest in heart !!! If there are things we don't understand let us just say there are things we don't understand and wait for God to clear them for us.		:''Let me drop this here – Charlie Mitchel said he gave up the whole world and TOOK JESUS. When he took Jesus, Bro Branham was directed to him in discernment and his cancer disappeared. Charlie TOOK JESUS and that Jesus responded through a prophet whom you now want to call FALSE – Please let's be honest in heart !!! If there are things we don't understand let us just say there are things we don't understand and wait for God to clear them for us.

	:If someone was healed by Jesus Christ, that is wonderful. But that requires me to glorify God and not WMB. A gift of healing is not the sign of a prophet. You are simply grasping for straws.		::If someone was healed by Jesus Christ, that is wonderful. But that requires me to glorify God and not WMB. A gift of healing is not the sign of a prophet. You are simply grasping for straws.

	:''I REST MY CASE		:''I REST MY CASE

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	:''There are things you brand as failed visions which for us we have explanations for. If you don’t accept our explanations it does not mean we don’t have explanations. You simply want to dismiss our explanations just like bible critics dismiss our explanations about the bible; it’s the same spirit.		:''There are things you brand as failed visions which for us we have explanations for. If you don’t accept our explanations it does not mean we don’t have explanations. You simply want to dismiss our explanations just like bible critics dismiss our explanations about the bible; it’s the same spirit.

	This has nothing to do with a spirit. This has everything to do with inadequate explanations.		::This has nothing to do with a spirit. This has everything to do with inadequate explanations.

	::You make statements that are not based on scripture. The Bible is my foundation. That is the foundation of the CHRISTIAN church. The message trashes the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.		::You make statements that are not based on scripture. The Bible is my foundation. That is the foundation of the CHRISTIAN church. The message trashes the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Admin: /* A response to Pastor Gwena */

2018-01-09T03:51:07Z

A response to Pastor Gwena

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	:''Finally Rod, we can debate about facts and evidences and visions etc, BUT the ultimate test is in the life. The bible tells us a tree is known by its fruits. My testimony is THE MESSAGE OF WMB PRODUCES A CHRISTIAN LIFE IN PEOPLE. That I am a witness of and NOBODY can tell me otherwise. I wonder what type of a life the so called people who left the message are now living? We hear of former deacons now alcoholics – lets give it time and by their fruits we shall know them.		:''Finally Rod, we can debate about facts and evidences and visions etc, BUT the ultimate test is in the life. The bible tells us a tree is known by its fruits. My testimony is THE MESSAGE OF WMB PRODUCES A CHRISTIAN LIFE IN PEOPLE. That I am a witness of and NOBODY can tell me otherwise. I wonder what type of a life the so called people who left the message are now living? We hear of former deacons now alcoholics – lets give it time and by their fruits we shall know them.

			==January 8, 2018==

			:''I don't know how you people had believed the message if you did not know your bible especially the Old Testament like John says. For us we know our bible yet we are in the message. I have personally gone through the entire bible from Genesis to Revelations a few times. Just this December I completed another round of the entire bible from Genesis to Revelations on a program to finish the bible in 90days. I do this yet am STILL IN THE MESSAGE. So don't take the way you had believed the message as a standard, you had missed something.

			::Spending that much time in the Bible is dfeinitely unlike most message pastors. But I know the Bible as well and have studied and read it since I was a child. The fact that protected me and led me out of the message is that I hold the Bible above WMB. Do you? Here's the test - Please let us know the issues where you disagree with WMB's interpretation of scripture. If you have no disagreements with him, then it is clear that you hold WMB's message above the Bible.

			:''You said here the only excuse for a “failed” vision is repentance. In my comments on your episode 45 (part 3) below I gave you a scripture on Elijah dying without fulfilling what God told him to do on anointing Jehu. You tried to explain this by saying Elijah was a disobedient prophet as opposed to a false prophet. But follow my arguments in my comments and you will see your explanation does not hold water. You then try and throw a red herring to divert attention to words vision vs still small voice when the point of the argument is God spoke to Elijah directly. PLEASE READ MY COMMENTS ON EPISODE 45 on Elijah dying without fulfilling what God had told him.

			;;I am surprised that you are unable to see the difference between WMB saying "Thus Saith The Lord" I WILL KILL A BROWN BEAR and Elijah saying that God told him to do something and he didn't do it. The difference is simply but if you can't see it, I am not surprised because THAT IS WHAT cognitive dissonance does to a person. They must accept the position that justifies their beliefs and are unable to see even simple contradictions.

			Coming to cognitive dissonance, this is a well known psychology theory. This theory is not about message believers trying to defend the Prophet as you almost try and make it sound. The theory suggests that people have an inner drive to hold their beliefs (cognitions) and attitudes in harmony and avoid disharmony (dissonance). This belief spoken of here is ANY belief NOT just a message belief as you try and potray. You people now hold a firm cognition (belief) that Bro Branham was a false prophet. This belief is so deep entrenched in you that you think anyone that does not see what you see is deluded. You fight for your belief so much until you have dedicated websites, podcasts, hours and hours of time to try and defend your belief and spread your beliefs. Anyone that comes against your beliefs you accuse them of cognitive dissonance YET YOU DON'T REALISE THAT YOU YOURSELVES ARE IN COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. You say where are we in dissonance, deep within you there are somethings that you know that these were supernatural in the life of Bro Branham. Your website Rod carries the testimony of Charlie Mitchel who Bro Branham discerned accurately in the sermon This Day This Scripture Is Fulfilled. No prayer cards had been given in that service so Bro Branham could not have been reading prayer cards as some may be deluded to want to say. People went to ask Charlie if they had a previous encounter with Bro Branham and he confirmed there was none. People then asked him what he had done to be called out in discernment and he said in his own words “I just gave up this whole world and take Jesus”. His lung cancer was instantly healed and he went to 2 separate specialist who confirmed he no longer had cancer. THIS TESTIMONY IS ON YOUR OWN WEBSITE ROD. So you know there was a supernatural that was undeniable in the life of WMB. This knowledge is there at the back of your soul but because you now hold a firm belief that Bro Branham was false, you now go into cognitive dissonance. The result is you dedicate a life to try and disprove God's Prophet. Those are the TYPICAL SIGNS OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE.

			::The title of Dr. Festinger's book is "WHEN RPOPHECY FAILS" which describes EXACTLY what has happened to you. One of the things required for more fervent belief to occur is this "undeniable disconfirmatory evidence must occur." That is what our evidence with respect to the failed visions are - disconfirmatory evidence.

			:''Let me drop this here – Charlie Mitchel said he gave up the whole world and TOOK JESUS. When he took Jesus, Bro Branham was directed to him in discernment and his cancer disappeared. Charlie TOOK JESUS and that Jesus responded through a prophet whom you now want to call FALSE – Please let's be honest in heart !!! If there are things we don't understand let us just say there are things we don't understand and wait for God to clear them for us.

			:If someone was healed by Jesus Christ, that is wonderful. But that requires me to glorify God and not WMB. A gift of healing is not the sign of a prophet. You are simply grasping for straws.

			:''I REST MY CASE

			::But you have not proved a thing. An independent jury would not be convinced. In fact, they would look at you quizzically and wonder where your evidence is.

	==Listener comments==		==Listener comments==